Today’s Top Supply Chain Challenges

Details #

Karl talks with Dilip Bhattacharjee, Partner at McKinsey, about today’s biggest challenges and opportunities in logistics. They discuss logistics as a growth sector, supply chain digitization, supply chain sustainability and industry labor challenges. And, Karl and Dilip discuss the shifts in consumer behavior and their impact on supply chain structure and forecasting. Learn how:

• eCommerce drives the atomization of supply chain networks

• Strategic supply chain technologies cut through complexity

• Innovation shapes the industry and creates new flexible logistics models

• Operators continue to struggle with labor shortages

“Delivering goods has so many blind handoffs, lots and lots of touches and so many complexities that the opportunity to truly take advantage of technology in this industry is immense.” - Dilip Bhattacharjee, Partner at McKinsey & Company

Sources #

• U.S. job reshoring (Bloomberg)

• Global and regional costs and 3PL market trends (Downshift)

• McKinsey’s recent logistics and supply chain report (Logistics Disruptors)

Logistics Leadership Podcast legal disclaimer

Episode Transcript #

Dilip Bhattacharjee 0:00

There has been this enormous surge of innovation in the last few years, taking advantage of a more optimized supply chain, the models of flexible asset sharing the models of making use of this more complex network have started to emerge.

Karl Siebrecht 0:15

I'm Karl Siebrecht. I'm Jordan Lawrence. And I'm Ben Dean. This is the Logistics Leadership Podcast.

Ben and Jordan, it's great to see you both again. You know, I was thinking the other day that it's been a little over three months since we hosted the Logistics Leadership Forum in Phoenix. And how great that event was. We had a relatively small group of very senior supply chain executives across all verticals.

And we had some other very senior leaders from logistics service providers. And in that forum, over a day and a half, I was struck by how deep the conversations got, how open the attendees were about their challenges, and how much they learned from each other. Because we were able to create this forum for learning, what was your guys' take on that?

Ben Dean 1:42

Yeah, same here Jordan. It's been an ongoing conversation with our folks in the 3PL and transportation space. And, you know, we said that was three months ago at the Leadership Forum. Right. And it's already changed since then.

Jordan Lawrence 1:12

Yeah, I thought it was just a fantastic event, Karl, and I've been on the road every week since that forum, talking with Fortune 500 supply chain leaders. And what strikes me is the pace of change in our industry and how dynamic everything is, you know, just in the time we had those conversations to where we are now. It's like every two weeks, it feels like the conversation changes.

Karl Siebrecht 2:08

Ben, love to hear your thoughts on, you know, what you see on the logistics service provider side?

Ben Dean 2:20

Yeah, the feedback was great. And there's a high interest in us continuing to do that, which we

will, but that will happen on an annual cycle. And we thought, you know, how can we find a way to have this type of conversation more frequently to be able to hear insights from leaders, again, both on the customer side, the provider side on a more regular basis, to keep tabs on what's important and what's changing. And the idea of a podcast seemed to make tons of sense. And so here we are kicking off the logistics leadership podcast.

So, to kick us off, I thought there was no better way to start than by identifying what the biggest issues in logistics are today. And who better to do that with than McKinsey given the view that they have across the industry broadly. So, I'm going to speak with Dilip Bhattacharjee, who is a partner at McKinsey, and has worked in logistics for a couple of decades. And as I do that, Jordan and Ben, it'd be great if you guys can dig into your experiences and what you're hearing in the market today and the data you're seeing.

Jordan Lawrence 3:01

Yeah, Karl, as you know, I love the big picture. So I'm really excited for this first interview, and I'll spend some time digging up my favorite particular data points on the big picture and look forward to coming back on the other side and talking about it.

Ben Dean 3:14

Let me touch base with a few of the national 3PL providers and see if you've got a counterpoint and or some agreement on this.

Karl Siebrecht 3:20

Great. We'll see you back here in a little bit.

Dilip Bhattacharjee is a partner at McKinsey and Company focused on logistics. Dilip, thanks for taking a few minutes to talk with us today.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 3:33

It's my pleasure to be here, Karl.

Karl Siebrecht 3:35

If you wouldn't mind, please just start by giving us a snapshot of your expertise and background.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 3:41

Happy to. I've been a partner at McKinsey now for 15 years. I started here in the Chicago office in 2007. And I spent most of that time in our sector that we call travel, logistics and

transportation. I got involved in logistics even before McKinsey, I'm an engineer by training. So when I graduated, I got a job in supply chain. My first job out of college was helping move one factory to another place.

So, logistics and supply chain was what I did. I will say when I first joined McKinsey, I joined because I wanted to get out of that world, I wanted to get out of supply chain and logistics. Because you know, in the 90s and in the early 2000s, that was not the place where people wanted to be but in the last five years even before the pandemic, logistics has become the cool thing.

And frankly, the pandemic reminded everybody how important and central logistics is. So as we go forward, you know, I'm really, really excited about the fact that this is the space that you and I are in and we are going to see lots and lots of interesting things happen.

Karl Siebrecht 4:47

Yeah, that's great. Thank you for that. We'd love for you to share what you see as the top concerns or challenges in logistics today.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 4:57

If you look at North America, somewhere between 1995 and 2015, The total growth in ton-miles in the economy stagnated. Our country grew, but we were not moving lots and lots of heavy things long distances for a pretty long period of time.

Which is very atypical, right? If you think of the relationship between return miles of goods movement versus GDP, typically it moves in lockstep. And you see that for 100 years until 1995 and it tapers off. And a lot of that can be explained with, you know, the changes the one-time event of China entering the WTO, and the big realignment of global supply chains that happened, right, right.

But after 2015, you can see those two curves snapped back. So done, miles are growing not just at par with North American GDP but faster since 2015. So even before the pandemic happened, essentially, we started moving things around the country again to power our economy. And there are two reasons why that has happened. One is, you know, that China effectively will, at some point plateau, right? Things stabilized across the world, and the global supply chain stabilized.

And post-pandemic, now, of course, I'm sure you're seeing more and more stuff getting diversified from a supply chain standpoint, which benefits Mexico-Canada flows. Well, the two other parts of it: One is the massive growth of eCommerce, right, which adds a whole new amount of ton-miles into the equation. The second part, which is a little more underrated is sort of North America became a powerhouse of energy, manufacturing, and therefore, chemicals

and everything that flows from that, from oil and gas. So very interesting time to be here. With all of a sudden, Logistics is a broad sector to be in versus something you had to deal with because you had no other option.

Karl Siebrecht 6:56

That is a great macro view I hadn't ever heard before through that wide of an aperture. I think it makes tons of sense. So in that context, maybe since 2015 or so, what have you seen develop as the major kind of challenges or concerns as part of that broader lens?

Dilip Bhattacharjee 7:18

The first and most obvious implication is eCommerce striving and atomization of the supply chain. As you all know and read, I'm sure all the time, we are building warehouses that are smaller and are closer to population centers. The average length of haul of a truck movement in the last decade has dropped almost continuously year over year as supply chain networks have adjusted to a faster, quicker home delivery-based model, right, it's just a natural consequence. The middle mile is becoming shorter, faster, and slightly lighter.

Karl Siebrecht 7:54

So, moving inventory out closer to where the people are.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 7:57

Correct. As people are moving more and more of the sales through the eCommerce channels, the fulfillment model of those goods that eventually have to be delivered after you do the sale is more atomized; the inventory is a forward place, the inventory is closer to where the point of consumption is, which has a consequence for the middle mile and the whole networks, the networks are shorter, faster and lighter.

That also means if you flow it all the way back from a logistics provider standpoint, way more opportunities for optimization, way more opportunities for squeezing out empty miles, way more opportunities for doing better routing or doing more interesting things with flexible warehousing capacity. Interesting things with flexible power capacity.

So, there has been this enormous surge of innovation in the last few years. A lot of it started before the pandemic but accelerated to the pandemic in taking advantage of a more atomized supply chain, right, the models of flexible asset sharing; the models of making use of this more complex network have started to emerge and all kinds of interesting models are coming up.

So that's one thing on the other side, on the supply side, there are two big opportunities. One opportunity is technology, digital technology. Our industry has embraced digital technology, you know, just like everybody else has, but frankly because delivering goods has so many blind handoffs, lots and lots of touches, so many complexities, the opportunity to truly take advantage of technology in this industry is immense.

And we are seeing everybody experimenting with lots and lots of fascinating applications inside the warehouse. I'd say the warehouse, the way we match loads the way we are in digitizing traditional processes that used to be done on pen and paper, telephones, etc. So our industry is like the poster child of disruption right?

Naturally, as a consequence, we have seen this huge uptick in venture funding in logistics tech, which has shown no signs of slowing down in 2022 and 2023, unlike many other sectors, because I think all investors realize the full potential. There's a lot more weight to go in our sector.

Karl Siebrecht 10:17

Got it. So, on the demand side of the equation, it sounds like a primary driver of both challenges and opportunities, consumer behavior changes, sort of: we want our stuff faster, which motivates businesses to move their inventory out closer to pockets of demand, which I love this word that you used, "atomizes" the logistics network or the supply chain, really both, which then in turn creates more opportunity for optimization and also more challenges. Because there are more nodes in the network, there are more sort of inputs into your optimization model, and just more complexity.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 10:57

And because there are shorter moves outside the warehouse, the nature of the movements between nodes is way more varied than 20 years ago, right? When I had 20 big warehouses, and we've just run dedicated shuttles between them, versus now I have 45. I think the nature of the optimization problem changes quite a bit, because some are long haul, some are short haul, and it is a way more computationally complicated problem to solve, given the complexity of the demand coming out.

Karl Siebrecht 11:30

That's right. And I would add on top of that, it's a very complex problem to solve in a static environment. If you could nail down precision on the forecast at each of those now, a number of nodes that have been multiplied, that would be a very challenging problem to get right. We see that the rate of consumer behavior change has picked up too, because consumers are presented with more options more frequently. So that has to add additional complexity to this equation, right? It's just more difficult to forecast.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 12:10

I think you're exactly right, it is harder. The demand side is harder, not just because of the structural point, but also because of the consumer behavior and shipper behavior. In any of the big carriers, particularly in the middle mile, I think you will hear from them that they have seen and they are feeling the lack of precision is too strong a word but perhaps, you know, the confidence intervals around what their customers are telling them and shippers are telling them. It's not that the shippers don't want to tell them.

What because you know, it's in everybody's interest. It's the shippers don't know, right? There's just so much uncertainty that filters through as consumer behavior to a point is more complicated. Then you add it, you filter that through a more complicated network. And so the demand coming to the carriers is inherently more unstable / has a higher standard deviation.

So yes, the demand side is becoming harder to optimize. You know, one view of that is it's more complicated. The other view of that is, you know, we can use technology to address it versus trying to match it with telephones and pen and paper.

Karl Siebrecht 13:13

And there you go. Yeah, it creates an opportunity for companies, brands, retailers, who are more willing to adopt technologies and implement them. It creates opportunities to create some advantage. Let's talk a little bit about the supply side, what do you see as some of the major either dynamics happening on the supply side, or even more specifically, some of the challenges that folks from the supply side of the business are facing?

Dilip Bhattacharjee 13:40

On the supply side, what I've heard the most from people in the industry is labor. There is no question that the pandemic, like in many other things showed how important it is to have a truck driver available to move masks, vaccines and everything we need, right? Many people stayed at home, hundreds and millions of people you know who didn't stay at home, dispatchers and truck drivers. Not even for a day. That's how we kept going. That's how the peloton bikes kept showing up in our basements, right?

And there is without a question, even heading into the pandemic, you know, driver shortages was an issue, I think got exacerbated by the huge volume of retirements. We are seeing a huge challenge on the labor side, people have put on crazy signing bonuses. Some of the craziness of 2021 has abated because the rebalancing of goods to services in the economy has helped.

But the fundamental issue of an aging workforce, and we just don't have enough people coming through, on the supply side, right? You see the airlines are massively challenged. You know, if you're moving vaccines and pharmaceutical stuff, you need the planes to fly. For the planes to be able to fly in the Northeast corridors, for example, we are short of people in the towers, we

are short of pilots, we are going to come short in the next five years on the mechanic side.

And these are highly specialized things like somebody who maintained the jet engine, that's not something you can just put an ad and put up a signing bonus and get someone in six months, it takes years to get someone to train on that. And you can just go down from airlines to railroads to trucks. It's the same labor categories, right, where there are pretty big shortfalls.

The good news is a lot of our big carriers, whether the rails, the truckers, the air, the three big modes, if you will, the big players in each one of them have aggressively moved into this area, right? They have set up pilot training schools, they've set up driver training schools, and they're getting into conductors for trains. So I'm very hopeful that the industry as a whole has really taken this lesson to heart. But that is the number one problem. Yeah, we're not short of equipment. We're short of people.

Karl Siebrecht 16:00

It's so fascinating that in the business we're in we hear a lot and think a lot about labor issues in warehouse employees. Certainly, truck driving has been a headline, but I hadn't heard about it. It is sort of back even further up the chain to mechanics. Doesn't sound like there's a quick fix for any of that anytime soon.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 16:21

It's not just an industry problem. You are at the wage band level in the $25 to $50 per hour wait band level, where people have other options where there is massive growth. So in the trucking business, you know, as we all know, sort of between Thanksgiving and Easter, this big shift happens. Lots and lots of people all the way from Maine to Minnesota show up to drive trucks who were otherwise during the summer doing construction jobs, right?

If we have a bigger boom in construction jobs, which we are seeing, more factories are getting built in the country, right, thanks to the Chips Act and all that, that puts pressure on the driver pool. So, there are all these complicated systems modeling second-order issues in the labor space, which will be fascinating to see. It all points towards this being a secular problem, not a one-time "oh, we had a problem with the pandemic we just open a bunch of private schools and the problem goes away." This is here to stay; we must keep working continuously.

Karl Siebrecht 17:19

I'm curious to hear your view on decarbonization or sustainability as it relates to logistics. What do you see as challenges for CEOs and senior executives in the logistics field?

Dilip Bhattacharjee 17:32

It is very clear that in most of the C-suite conversations, the carriers are getting questions about their carbon footprint, what they're doing about the carbon profile. You can see in all our modes of transportation, the carriers are starting to take supply-side actions, whether it is SAF whether it is battery, whether it is hydrogen. Having said that, there is still more work that shippers need to do to translate the sustainability goals into very tangible practical goals for the procurement

function that buys transportation.

For some shippers, particularly if you're a consumer packaged goods shipper, right, your scope 3 emissions, which is where logistics comes in and you outsource is a huge part of the equation. So naturally, in the consumer packaged goods companies in the retail companies where this is a big deal, they have made a ton of progress.

So there are leading players, where the transportation buyers are beginning to understand, translate, and operationalize real change, which is forcing real conversations about what is the mode, what is the equipment, etc, etc. But there are still many other retailers, 50% I would say, where this has not yet happened, like it is still conceptual and theoretical. There is a Chief Sustainability Officer who believes that they should do something, but wiring it into the procurement organization that is actually doing the buying off the logistics hasn't fully yet happened.

But, the direction of travel is very clear, right, things are going to move towards the former, they're not going to move backwards. On the other hand, the supply side, there is all kinds of complexity and constraints that will make this transition difficult and slow. It's not going to happen overnight. So those who have electric trucks, right, in Southern California, on the ports, and so on and so forth. Now we have problems of charging. You can see this in the trade publications all the time.

So at first, we were not sure that we could get the trucks now that the trucks are started showing up, we don't know how or where to charge them. So there's just a lot of ecosystem friction that still exists that will help the industry decarbonize and it'll take time. The carriers that are going to remain purposeful and steady with a measured hand, I think are moving in the right direction versus waiting and watching and then trying to do everything quickly, it's not going to be that easy to do something quickly in the space given the complexity on both the supply side and the demand.

Karl Siebrecht 20:08

That's right. Complexity and the degree of infrastructure is massive.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 20:13

If we get into hydrogen, then we have to talk about where we are going to get the hydrogen fuel, both hydrogen and electric and SAF. The supply chain for those three, which are the substitute for the carbon-based inputs that our industry currently uses is very nascent.

Karl Siebrecht 20:29

I want to come back to something you'd mentioned we spoke about just for a minute or two earlier on digitization. So digitization is a significant opportunity to better manage and optimize these increasingly atomized supply chains or logistics networks. Where do you see logistics digitization technologies on the adoption curve? Are we early days? Are we kind of halfway home?

Dilip Bhattacharjee 20:55

Good news is we are further along than we are on the sustainability side. Partly because, in this space, there's also a thriving set of 3PLs and 4PLs, who have played a critical role in preventing blind handoffs between shippers and carriers in making things simpler and taking care of complexity. So because our sector always had strong players in that space in the 4PL 3PL space, as those players are people attacking them wanting to replace them, disruptors if you will, have tried to do that work with technology, progress has been faster.

These are tasks that are largely end-to-end human driven, judgment driven, matching driven tasks. Other industries around us, finance, for example, have helped mature some of the technologies to do that. Consequently, we've benefited from that. And we are rapidly adopting everybody who was in the brokerage business, everybody, whether they're an incumbent or a disrupter is today doing some version of digital, the actual transition, if you will, the product to the technology has happened. So that's the good part. The bad part is it does create a different economic model.

The value creation thesis is very different, the cost per serve is different. And so there is still a shakeout that needs to happen between the way you made money in the past with your old cost structure and the way you're going to make money in the future. And particularly for intermediaries, business logic, or the parallels from other industries would suggest that this will be much more of platform-type winner-take-all-scale players who will eventually start creating more value in capturing more value. And so some sort of a shakeout will happen.

That said, in North America, we are a $1 trillion - like it's an enormous, enormous market. Even if it's a shakeout in the market, there's just lots of opportunity for many players to make money. But that's a direction of travel. The technology has happened. I would say even the adoption is

happening, particularly in the intermediary space for the sort of consequence of the business model. shakeout is what's gonna come next.

Karl Siebrecht 23:06

Dilip, thank you again, we look forward to keeping in touch going forward.

Dilip Bhattacharjee 23:11

Thank you, Karl, for the opportunity.

Karl Siebrecht 23:17

All right. So that was quite a conversation with Dilip, I enjoyed that. You know, there's so much to unpack there. One of the things to start with is, that I love the way he described the atomization of the supply chain network, that networks are becoming sort of shorter, faster throughput, lighter in many respects. But that also brings additional complexity that really jumped out at me. And I felt like that's a great way to describe the trend that has been happening for the last, you know, five to 10 years. Jordan, what do you think?

Jordan Lawrence 23:56

Yeah, Karl, I'm so glad you brought that up. And I hope everyone caught the atomization of the supply chain. But one that really stuck out to me was tonnage shipped was flat from 1995 until 2015. And that's remarkable given the economic growth we experienced during that period. But now we're seeing this acceleration in tonnage shift.

And that, you know, we're kind of in the fog of war of what might be an economic slowdown. Yes, maybe there's a little bit of a pullback now. There have been announcements from Walmart Target and Big Lots. They've dialed back their new buildings a little bit. But I think it's important to take a step back and not miss the forest for the trees, and know that this is a huge secular trend. And we're likely in the early innings of where this is going.

Ben Dean 24:43

Those secular trends do tend to get lost in the noise of the latest disruption event, whether it's overseas war or the next pandemic like we're just focused on that. But on the warehouse side of things, a number one constraint and if you went back five years ago, 10 years ago, being labor, still that situation today. But the way they need to address it might be different today given changes in reshoring and things like that. So, Jordan, what are you seeing on the shipper side when it comes to the labor equation?

Jordan Lawrence 25:14

Yeah, well, again, Dilip just hit the nail on the head here. I think I strongly agreed with him about the secular tightness in labor. And he did a great job of kind of expounding on everything up to the mechanics that work on the trucks, and also the fluidity of this labor, how construction demand and reshoring that drives construction demand can pull the same labor that works in your warehouse, or that works, you know, as a truck driver.

Ben Dean 25:43

Yeah, the interesting parallel that I got was the other secular trend in labor in that this has somewhat disappeared below the line with the capacity issues of the last two to three years. But now is showing up at the front for 3PLs as that is their biggest constraint and concern. From the operator's perspective, I talked with Mike Griffin, VP over at Johnson Logistics.

Mike Griffin 26:07

You know, trying to find, and I'll just use an example of forklift operators, is more difficult than what it was, let's call it three years ago. Since we've come out of the pandemic, our marketing spend on labor has more than doubled pre-pandemic. And that's using different resources from Indeed to radio to staffing companies, you name it, we're using that in different markets to come up with that labor source.

Ben Dean 26:38

Not only is it warehouse labor itself, but the knock-on effects of construction and warehousing, and another is the areas and resourcing where the same labor pool is just getting drawn from by all these different employers, makes it a real challenge for the 3PL industry. And I think a lot of the trends that will talk towards digitization and automation create solutions that we didn't have five or 10 years ago. Again, here's Mike's take.

Mike Griffin 27:05

And that's where automation is coming into play. You look at the robotics of eCommerce in two or three years, I may be using that automated forklift versus, you know, an in-person forklift operator. We may be forced to do that just because of the difficulty that goes into finding that operator.

Jordan Lawrence 27:25

Yeah, just just one add-on point here, from the shipper perspective, a data point. You know, 2022, there were 25% more jobs reshored than 21. And 23 is on pace to outstrip that. So these are huge numbers when you talk about the scale of the job market, and what it means to have a 25% increase year over year and, and what looks like to be even more in 23 speaks to why this is a secular trend.

There is a force that is in play here that's going to continue and continue to drive that tightness. And Karl, you know, love to get your thoughts here. But, you know, what does this mean for automation and the opportunities there? It does feel like this, this creates, this creates opportunity, as well as challenge.

Karl Siebrecht 28:10

Yeah, absolutely. And, and I like, again, sort of building on his comment about the atomization of networks, which also creates increasing complexity. And one of the critical ingredients to work on complexity is technology. You know, how can we use data and analytics to come up with better forecasts or come up with a better sense of how and where forecasts are likely to be wrong? So that we can build an infrastructure that can be responsive to that that can be agile?

And then yeah, on the labor front, you know, can we rely on technology and technology innovation to offset some of the gaps that we're starting to see in the labor markets? And I think, you know, his view was that, yep, you know, robotics is one of the key technology developments. It's very, very real. One of the other things he talked about was the length of haul, shortening the legs of distribution. Ben, I imagine that probably jumped out to you as well, right?

Ben Dean 29:13

Yeah. And the same thing came out at Armstrong and Associates this year, when they did their annual State of the Industry, the 3PL. The average size of warehouses went down by 10%, right between 2022 and 2019. They were bigger warehouses pre-pandemic. As you get closer, you get smaller. So that ties into this complexity play because now you've got many more links in the chain where things can go wrong.

And what I saw interesting in what you're talking about with digitization and different tools around that is who solves for right. The 3PLs are trying to solve for some aspect of it. If you're looking at retail or CPG, they're trying to look at digitalization as a solution. And then there are all these new companies in the mix as well, connecting the dots, connecting the links in the chain. So everyone's making an effort here, but it's so decentralized, we're not sure where it's going to land.

Jordan Lawrence 30:05

I think it just kind of circles back to the pace of change, how this is going to unfold and the need to be dynamic. You know, this is, again, what supply chain leaders are telling us in the conversations we have is, is they're, they're having to be more reactive and more dynamic than ever before.

And I think a case in point around the size of the warehouse footprint if you make long-run tenure decisions, and those decisions are predicated on large buildings, while we've seen how quickly and dramatically that can change. I think I'm going to stake my claim on uncertainty and stay there.

Ben Dean 30:41

You won't be wrong there, I'm sure. But Karl, you mentioned the EVPs so this is one of Dilip's big calls, right? In talking with Johnson Logistics, as a counterpoint, Johnson was saying specifically we don't know how long those trucks are going to be on the road, what the maintenance costs are going to be, etc. Let's listen to Mike's perspective.

Mike Griffin 31:01

Cost and availability are probably two of the bigger things and trusting that the newer technology is going to last as long as the previous type of equipment. Because you think about it, those newer resources and those newer, you know, tractor-trailers or straight truck-like equipment, have not been out very long to then show how long they can truly last. Being that we're in Denver, and we're constantly going out, you know, into the mountains, it's a harder mile than someone running through Missouri that's flat.

Ben Dean 31:33

So they're tending towards the wait-and-see approach on some of those things that may be more in the five to 10-year range and taking the ones that have already been proven out as that newest electric or automated technology.

Karl Siebrecht 31:45

Yeah, I'm excited. We have another episode coming up where we're gonna focus on that topic specifically, and very much looking forward to that conversation. Well, this has been a great start to the Logistics Leadership Podcast. We covered a lot of ground. We talked about the changing shape of the supply chain, digitization, sustainability and labor.

We'll keep diving deeper into these issues and others in our future episodes. And next time specifically, we're going to dig into supply chain digitization and the current logistics technology explosion. Jordan, Ben, as always, I really enjoyed the discussion and look forward to continuing this conversation.

Narrator 32:28

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